Tue 11 Dec 2007
In today’s world, where technology (i.e., Photoshop and the
like) can be so deceptive, what ‘Proof’ would make you believe that extra-terrestrial life/a divine being had actually visited Earth?
What would you accept as proof of a bona fide “Miracle”?
Posted by Misha19 answers so far!
A body. Or a crashed spacecraft. Habeas fuckin’ corpus.
And there can never be “proof” of a bona fide miracle, because by definition a miracle is an event which supersedes the laws of nature, and so is not bound by empirical rules of evidence. IMHO.
If I recall my art history correctly, an “true” icon was a miracle in that it could self-replicate. Any painting that could instantly transfer its own image to any other object that touched it, would definitely qualify in my book.
Good question. In terms of miracles, even if everyone everywhere had the same “vision”, say, most people like us would be pretty sure it was some sort of military experiment/attack, I imagine. Celestial and weather phenomena might do it, if they were dramatic enough, plus good choices since that would be something everyone could experience first-hand.
The old tried and true parting-the-sea thing is always a winner, but since the majority of people wouldn’t be able to see it for themselves, we would have to rely on the combined accuracy/honesty/intelligence (not to be hoaxed) of news sources, which - eh.
Those are two very different things. There’s nothing miraculous about alien visitors, they’re just very, very unusual. I would need a lot of specific and rigorously examined evidence, but I could probably be persuaded of their existence.
A miracle, on the other hand, as BOP says is something that supersedes the laws of nature, and I’m fairly set in my ways when it comes to my belief that reality is explainable without supernatural forces. Even if Jesus stopped by in person, and summoned Richard Dawkins out of thin air to tell me that he was convinced, I suspect I’d keep looking for an explanation that did not involve supernatural powers.
I’m with BOP and Horace. Miracles, IMHO, necessarily don’t exist. Not only is it the case that there have not been any miracles in the world thus far, the idea of a miracle as such is essentially a contradiction in terms.
How do we find out what the laws of nature are? We study the natural world and construct a set of laws that best predicts the phenomena we see. Not just all the “normal” phenomena, but all of them. So if people observe and report “miracles”, scientists will alter their theories to construct a set of laws that account for them too. Those laws may end up being fairly complicated if lots of sea-splitting, fish-multiplication and the like goes on, but have you looked at quantum theory lately? Since science’s job is explaining every phenomenon, there can never be such a thing as a “phenomenon that science can’t explain”.
The other way to look at miracles is: who created nature? God, right? (Play along here, if you’re an atheist). So why would God create a law-based system that He knows He must occasionally explicitly violate to get His desired results? Wouldn’t it be better to just create laws that worked right the first time? I find this argument lots of fun, but it depends on understanding God’s psychology so it’s really not that convincing when you get right down to it.
As far as extra-terrestrials: peer-reviewed journals. I’m not a biologist, much less an exobiologist, but if I see it in Nature, I’ll believe it.
I have to say I’ve become such a skeptic over the years that I think I’d have to witness either event first hand.
Give me a spacecraft coming in for a landing over my hometown, or someone turning water into wine right in front of me. Then I might believe it.
I’d be willing to believe in Divine Intervention if something big and unusual happened, like bullets turning into flowers. It would be pretty difficult to photoshop that.
[Note: this is a user-posted question from yesterday; I’m experimenting with the promotion of user questions to the front page, and this is trial run number one. Let’s see what happens!]
If George Bush denies something, that means that it really happened.
What Horace said. I’m a hardened skeptic about UFOs, but that’s because the “evidence” is all blurry photos and crackpot “memories”; actual extra-terrestrial life wouldn’t be hard to figure out, I imagine. The saucer-shaped vessel lands, the green entity with a few extra limbs steps out, the Universal Translator crackles “Take me to your leader”… we all know the drill. On the other hand, a divine being would have no way of manifesting him/her/itself that could not be taken for advanced technology having a little fun with our credulity, and I for one would give it the old fico.
Yay for user-posted questions!
Like Marie, it’d pretty much have to happen right in front of me or in front of people I trust.
it would take tremendous faith on my part to believe in a miracle, which is another way of saying it won’t happen.
for aliens, there would actually have to be some kind of legitimate proof. that’s it. people act like there’s this massive sceptic movement which refuses to believe in things NO MATTER HOW MUCH PROOF they’re shown. the simple fact is that there hasn’t been any legitimate proof. blurry photographs that might seem to be awfully mysterious aren’t legitimate in any way. for one, as you’ve mentioned, there’s photoshop so digital images are right out either way. for two, these pictures are all long distance blurry indistinguishable photos. I’m sorry, but a vague blur cannot be identified as anything, no matter how much we may want to believe. now, legitimacy is an arguable thing that’s true. but there are things which cannot be questioned. If an alien made a public landing that could be and was recorded by anyone who wanted and hung around long enough for people to just go right by and see it then fuck yeah I’d believe in it. But for reasons only conspiracy theorists seem to understand we only see them in lowlight conditions through the lenses of poor photographers.
either that, or I’ll just believe it when I see it on the teevee.
Hey, I’m on the front page! Have I mentioned how great the BBQ is yet?
I would have a hell (pardon the pun) of a time believing any sort of second coming. If they were able to prove to me decisively that God exists of Jesus was not just a smart man, then I would wholeheartedly dedicate my life to following whatever proclamations came down (but not the bible, which is written by men). I have tremendous capacity for faith, but nothing to put my faith in.
For aliens, my level of proof would be a lot lower. I am sure they exist already (1. statistical probability, 2. I saw something in the sky I’ve never been able to explain), so it wouldn’t be hard to convince myself they were close by.
Seconding the self-repeating, transferable miracle. It would have to be able to be tested down to the molecule, and I don’t think I would trust myself to believe it unless someone else witnessed it too.
From our point of view, extra-terrestrial life or a divine being are more or less the same. (Arthur C. Clarke’s “A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.) If aliens “land”, it’s a miracle: the only way for them to come here is faster than light and we have not the least idea how this can be possible in our 3D universe.
So any kind of alien will do it for me: as far as I know, they would have to come from (or through, or with) another dimension. We would be basically in the Flatland situation where the 3D beings see the inside of the 2D beings. So our visitors would be (sort of) able to communicate directly with our “inside”.
It could happen like this: suddenly, we hear/see a very friendly and peaceful “presence” directly in our mind: “Hi”. And to defuse the “I am crazy” response, “it” would put us all instantly in contact with one another. Like now on BBQ or any other community/game/chat but “their” presence would act like a direct bridge between all of us through “their” dimension.
Then the fun would begin and sure, I would believe. :-)
Miracles are easy. A small keg that would never run out of the drink of your choice, which you could change at will by thought. Mind reading powers (and not that cold reading BS). Using x energy and getting out 10x energy. Anything that bends the laws of physics is fine by me. Dante’s trilogy with you being guided by Virgil et al. A peaceful MeTa.
As soon as as a Lovecraftian horror sets foot on my town square I’ll
believerun like crazy before my mind catches up and I’m reduced to a wimpering pile of patheticness on the floor.Aliens: some sort of device that continued working after they left, say teleportation devices.
Jesus type figure: The resurrection of Pope John Paul II