Comments on: State vs. Language http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/ Question As Conversation Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:03:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: languagehat http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-3531 languagehat Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:49:28 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-3531 You're thinking of the Incas and their <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu" rel="nofollow">quipus</a>. You’re thinking of the Incas and their quipus.

]]> By: gaspode http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-775 gaspode Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:42:42 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-775 I'm reaching really far into my memory here, and I could be getting this completely wrong, but didn't the Mayans (?) have a really complex bookkeeping? story-keeping? somethingorother? system based on patterns of knots? Damn you, imperfect brain! I’m reaching really far into my memory here, and I could be getting this completely wrong, but didn’t the Mayans (?) have a really complex bookkeeping? story-keeping? somethingorother? system based on patterns of knots?

Damn you, imperfect brain!

]]> By: BitterOldPunk http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-773 BitterOldPunk Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:16:24 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-773 What forms of error-correction would such a system have to use? Seems like it'd evolve toward one meaning per phoneme, whatever that means. A nested set of sound signifiers logically linked hierarchically so complex conceptual retrieval wouldn't be entirely dependent on memory. It would have to have built-in "checksums", too. Perhaps even complicated "songs" that could then be vocally unpacked to reveal related layers of information -- "chords". OMG MUSIC IS LANGUAGE I JUST BLEW MY OWN MIND What forms of error-correction would such a system have to use? Seems like it’d evolve toward one meaning per phoneme, whatever that means. A nested set of sound signifiers logically linked hierarchically so complex conceptual retrieval wouldn’t be entirely dependent on memory. It would have to have built-in “checksums”, too. Perhaps even complicated “songs” that could then be vocally unpacked to reveal related layers of information — “chords”. OMG MUSIC IS LANGUAGE I JUST BLEW MY OWN MIND

]]> By: Josh Millard http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-772 Josh Millard Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:01:41 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-772 (And to turn it on its head: if we were to assume a society capable of producing complex, modern-ish infrustructure in the absence of formal written language, would they end up inventing one anyway?) (And to turn it on its head: if we were to assume a society capable of producing complex, modern-ish infrustructure in the absence of formal written language, would they end up inventing one anyway?)

]]> By: Josh Millard http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-771 Josh Millard Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:59:18 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-771 Well, let's get creative, though. Was the oral tradition ever really pushed to the limits by modern industrialists? Let's scale things up, not story-telling but highly specialized store-and-retrieve agents? A cadre in every city, a whole complex toolset of semantic and semiotic tricks for memorizing (and in some cases encoding non-orthographically) infrustructural information? Perhaps some of the details would be different -- there are things we could do less well, but others we could probably keep up with just fine. Could we have the states of today, exactly? That's pushing it. But what about a hundred years ago? Some other hairsplits: no formal written language, but does that preclude formal diagrams? Can we have blueprints? The earliest computers were programmed in machine code (and modern computers still are, indirectly) -- that's a language so non-human and bare-literal that I'd argue we could grandfather it in as a possibility (assuming we had computers in the first place). What about numerals? Arithmetic? Can we allow formal symbolic math in the absense of a general-use written meta-language? Surely tally marks would be allowed, so where is the line drawn? Let's milk this sucker. Well, let’s get creative, though. Was the oral tradition ever really pushed to the limits by modern industrialists? Let’s scale things up, not story-telling but highly specialized store-and-retrieve agents? A cadre in every city, a whole complex toolset of semantic and semiotic tricks for memorizing (and in some cases encoding non-orthographically) infrustructural information?

Perhaps some of the details would be different — there are things we could do less well, but others we could probably keep up with just fine. Could we have the states of today, exactly? That’s pushing it. But what about a hundred years ago?

Some other hairsplits: no formal written language, but does that preclude formal diagrams? Can we have blueprints?

The earliest computers were programmed in machine code (and modern computers still are, indirectly) — that’s a language so non-human and bare-literal that I’d argue we could grandfather it in as a possibility (assuming we had computers in the first place).

What about numerals? Arithmetic? Can we allow formal symbolic math in the absense of a general-use written meta-language? Surely tally marks would be allowed, so where is the line drawn?

Let’s milk this sucker.

]]> By: BitterOldPunk http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-764 BitterOldPunk Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:20:25 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-764 No. Information of such complexity and density requires storage and retrieval mechanisms well beyond the capability of human memory. (Imagine a government agency that consisted of nothing but Tax-Code Cenobites... *shudder*) No. Information of such complexity and density requires storage and retrieval mechanisms well beyond the capability of human memory. (Imagine a government agency that consisted of nothing but Tax-Code Cenobites… *shudder*)

]]> By: iamkimiam http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-730 iamkimiam Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:41:27 +0000 http://bigbigquestion.com/2008/01/14/state-vs-language/#comment-730 If these institutions were started in the oral tradition, I don't see any reason it couldn't continue successfully that way. However, we're talking 'bout a whole 'nother animal if we one day decided to do without orthography. If these institutions were started in the oral tradition, I don’t see any reason it couldn’t continue successfully that way. However, we’re talking ’bout a whole ‘nother animal if we one day decided to do without orthography.

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