Wed 23 Jan 2008
In various contexts, where is line drawn between unconstrained discussion of death and the (recently) dead — including criticism of the deceased and metacriticism of the discussion — and a social expectation of respect for the dead, for the gravity of death as a shared experience?
Where do you think the line should be drawn? Why does the line shift from context to context — what defines the social mores of those different contexts that causes (or permits) the line to shift?
(Inspired by the latest in a long historical string of Metatalk conversations about obitutary thread etiquette.)
Posted by Josh Millard4 answers so far!
I don’t know where the line is, but I’ve never stayed my tongue out of respect for the dead, but I’ve stayed my tongue out of respect for the mourners.
At the funeral, to the grieving family: “I’m so sorry for your loss. Is there anything I can do to help?”
Outside the funeral home, after the service: “Man, what an asshole. Earth’s a better place with him off it.”
The different dynamics of online discourse make that handy social division/blatant hypocrisy almost impossible to maintain. This is why I will chime in with a “.” in certain obit threads, yet ignore others. I want others to know that I am affected and saddened by someone’s passing, but, there are plenty of obit threads I don’t contribute to (who was Heath Ledger, anyway? See, that’s why I stayed out of that thread.), because I didn’t know the person, didn’t appreciate their work, or disagree with the majority opinion and had rather not troll the thread.
I also think some of this sorts itself out on a case-by-case basis. Pol Pot’s obit thread will likely be a bit less benign than Suzanne Pleshette’s, and rightly so. I mean, Suzanne Pleshette was only responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, not millions….
I’m not sure there’s a good way to do this online. Devoid of social context, it’s hard to walk the line between respect and honest discussion.
I know that when I die I want someone to start a MetaFilter thread and discuss what a complete asshole I was. That’d be fucking awesome.
It’s a tough question without a definitive answer. I really dislike deletions but I also can’t stand trolls. The main problem I see isn’t people denigrating a recently deceased (who aren’t massmurding fuckheads), they get the online tarring and feathering coming to them. The main problem is that the trolling causes tempers to teeter on the brink so that people asking otherwise fairly innocuous queries or comments get caught up in bewildering flamewars. This seems to have happened in the Ledger thread (which I admittedly have read only about half of).
To be honest I have no idea how to solve this. When I have no idea what to do and have exhausted all means of finding out how to do it, I usually just do nothing. This may be an intractable problem.
In various contexts? It’s rude to speak ill of the dead, period. The only “context” here is anonymity. Perhaps context should be replaced with “consequence.” There is very little consequence for any disrespectful statement regarding a dead person on Metafilter. There is a bigger consequence for speaking ill of the dead in a room full of people face-to-face.
There is a huge reward, however, for saying something snarky or disrespectful. Attention. A feeling of superiority, that adrenaline rush of “I am better than all of you.” Someone who did not have that feeling to gain would obviously not choose to make a snide comment. If you take the bait, then “you” are at fault, which is a typical abuser attitude. “You made me do it with your obviously empathetic attitudes, how dare you have those because they are not cool.” Fuck that noise. It’s called “pathology of the victim” in polite circles. Meaning, anyone who calls you on your empathy is an asshole.
Josh, do you have any solid demographics on the people who make obviously rude comments, meaning, is it age-sex-location-related? Do they have a pattern of dropping rude comments into threads and then sticking around to argue their point (key sign for attention-monger)? Was it an honest mistake that was mistranslated due to being text-only convo (i.e., “I have no idea who this person was.”)? Celebrities: they love to hate the rich and famous, even when they are dead, perhaps especially when they die. If someone were truly neutral about the whole thing, they would say nothing and move on to the next thread.
We all have a choice, but we are all human. Most people will sheepishly acknowledge pulling a boner when called on it, or try to clarify what they said (i.e., “I really didn’t know who he was and I was asking an honest question.”).
What sort of animalistic nature has pervaded our society that we have to argue the merits of a talented young man who died in his prime? He gave millions of people enjoyment through his performances, he kept our miserable existence at bay for 2 hours, he told a story that we could identify with, he represented the best and brightest of our internal psyches for the measly price of seven bucks, and apparently, in his off-time, he enjoyed a toke here and there. Whatthefuckover, people? What do you want? Do you want proof that your existence is somehow equal to or better than Health Ledger, because I assure you, it is neither. Death is the great equalizer, and if you are afraid of it, then you should be, because it is coming for you sooner or later.